Buying a Dog with No Papers

20th February 2013 - in General

A lot of people about to buy their first pedigree puppy will be under the impression that "papers" (i.e. Kennel Club registration and a pedigree) will only matter if they want the dog for showing or breeding. "We don't need papers as we are only looking for a family pet" is a phrase commonly heard. But is this correct?

Let me tell you a story about something that happened to me personally. I had kept dogs for decades, and I had been breeding for a little while, showing for much longer. There was a breed that I had liked all my life, ever since my grandparents acquired one when I was two years old. The Papillon. I had wanted one for so long, and now finally I was in a position to get one of my own. Only as a pet, as at the time I had absolutely no intention of adding a second breed to show. No, I wanted a pet, a dog to have fun with at training classes and to cuddle on my lap.

I first contacted a well known and respected breeder. I was told that as the breed has small litters, puppies can be hard to come by unless they are mismarked and obvious pets, but this breeder had recently mated two bitches and I was welcome to wait and see if there might be a pet puppy available for me. This I was happy to do. Unfortunately neither of the bitches fell pregnant, so the breeder recommended another well known breeder to me, as somebody who may have a puppy available. The second breeder explained they did not have a puppy available, but they knew of a third breeder who had a young litter where none were yet booked. It sounded perfect. I made a phone call and arranged to go and see the puppies a few weeks later.

In the meantime, I read up on the breed -for the umpteenth time. I learnt that it is not uncommon for puppies to be sold without papers when being sold for pets -this is clearly something which can vary from breed to breed as in the majority of breeds, you should expect KC registration. I also already knew that it was a healthy breed, with few health problems and usually a very long lifespan. Indeed, the world's oldest recorded dog was once a UK bred and owned Papillon called Fred who lived until 29. There are no vital recommended health tests such as hip scoring and as this was before the advent of the KC Assured Breeder Scheme, there were no recommended health tests to find out about either. I knew luxating patellas could be a problem in any small breed though, but again there is no official health scheme for this.

I went to see the litter of puppies and was allowed to have pick of litter. This should really have made me suspicious to start with -why did the breeder not want first choice herself? Didn't she breed the litter for something to keep back? I was too taken with the puppies to ask the question. Met the mother who was lovely and friendly and appeared healthy. The breeder seemed genuine and asked me lots of questions.

I picked my puppy up at 7 weeks of age. He was very small, and it was not until I got to know other breeders within the same breed that I found out that this breed you do NOT sell under the age of an absolute minimum of ten weeks, more likely 12 and above. They are simply so small they need their mother and litter mates for longer, they don't develop as quickly as larger breeds. My puppy fitted in the palm of my hand and he was terrified when he arrived at our house. He was black and white and I had decided to call him Bobby, after my grandparents' Papillon all those years earlier. The breeder gave me plenty of the food Bobby had been used to eating, and a handwritten pedigree. I had all along expected no KC registration as my puppy was a pet and I did not look at the pedigree when it was handed to me, as I knew little of Papillon pedigrees and it would make no difference to a pure pet anyway, I figured. After all, it was such a healthy breed, and there would be no hip scores or DNA tests or similar to worry about.

Later when I looked at the pedigree I was shocked to discover that it was not a case of just my puppy being unregistered. No, his mother was unregistered as well, as had HER mother been in turn. Yet Bobby's father was a show dog with good wins to his name. Why would somebody allow their winning show dog to mate an unregistered pet bitch, and more to the point, why would anybody BREED from an unregistered bitch, where none of the puppies could be registered? The answer was simple: money. The litter had been bred for one reason only; to make some money for the breeder. I could have kicked myself for being so naive, simply assuming that my puppy would not be registered as he was going to a pet home, but that the litter had been bred for a purpose other than profit. I was not entirely surprised when 8 months later the breeder phoned me and asked if I didn't want to buy a friend for Bobby, as he now had little brothers and sisters. His mother had been mated again at her very next season.

Bobby turned into a lovely dog, that I took to training classes and passed the KC Good Citizen Bronze, Silver and Gold tests with. A perfect pet? Yes, except his eyes were always runny, staining his nice white face. Treatments from the vet did not work. We even had him under anaesthetic to flush his tear ducts, which made no difference. The runny eyes have remained. Also Bobby's front legs are slightly tested, with his paws turning out. He looks like a little Charlie Chaplin. And his stomach has always been very sensitive. And he had food allergies causing skin problems. This improved when I started feeding raw meat only, but we did have several years worth of problems.

Today Bobby is 8 years old. He has turned almost completely grey and several vets have remarked on how he appears to be much older than his age. He is going blind. He has lost most of his teeth. Worst of all he has several times had serious problems with discs in his neck and back, with excruciating pain. Bobby is no longer my only Papillon. I now have several others as I fell in love with the breed and wanted to start showing and eventually breeding. I was very lucky that I met an excellent breeder who has been a mentor to me. Now, when comparing my other Papillons to Bobby, it is very clear what a badly bred dog Bobby is. None of the other dogs have any health problems whatsoever. They don't have sensitive stomachs or runny eyes or twisted feet or back problems. The oldest is close in age to Bobby yet she only looks about half his age. I only wanted a pet, but I wanted a healthy pet that would stay well into his teens and have a long life. Sadly, for Bobby it does not look like this will be the case. He was bred for money, by a breeder who had no knowledge of what problems could be lurking in the pedigree, if she even cared. On the other hand, my dogs that came from a caring show breeder have parents and grandparents etc. that not only look like their breed should, but are healthy and live long lives.

Of course, not all show breeders are good -there are good and bad in all walks of life. But buying your puppy from somebody who breeds for a purpose OTHER than making money is the first step in making sure you acquire a puppy that is going to be healthy. If you want, for instance, a Labrador -such a common breed, available easily from a number of sources- then unless you are buying from a breeder with a genuine interest in the breed, one who health tests all their dogs before breeding, one that either shows or works their dogs, then you are playing Russian roulette. That lovely puppy you bring home could in a few years time be crippled with hip and/or elbow dysplasia, and be going blind, unless the parents were hip scored, elbow scored and eye tested with GOOD results. This is where KC registration matters! If you are interested in buying a puppy, do your research and find out what health tests the parents need to have had carried out. Health tests are not at all only for show dogs -surely you want your pure pet to be healthy as well? Ask the breeder for the KC registered names of the puppies' parents and go to the KC website and check that the tests have been carried out. There is a very handy little tool call the "health test results finder". Also, any official health test results WILL be printed on your puppy's registration certificate! And the very fact that your puppy is registered will prove that its parents, grandparents etc. also are. Even if you buy a puppy where for one reason or another you will not get KC registration, double check that the parents ARE registered, get their names, check their health tests. Search Engines are your best friend - search for the parents' names. Any breeder worth their salt will have entered their breeding dogs into competitions and you should be able to find proof of this by searching for the names. Active involvement in a breed means a lot. It is no guarantee, but it shows the breeder is not solely breeding for money, as showing and/or working and carrying out health tests is very expensive indeed. It's a hobby that no good breeder will expect to make money out of. Unfortunately not all breeds have health tests that will be recorded with the KC (such as in the case of Papillons) but again just checking whether the breeder has any further involvement within the breed other than breeding will help. The good breeder will also go above and beyond KC recommendations, and will for instance eye test their dogs annually and can show you certificates as proof of this.

So yes, papers DO matter -just as much for a pet as for a show dog. You would not buy a cheap car without MOT and service history and expect it to work perfectly, would you? It's not all that different with puppies.

  • 20th February 2013 16:33 - Posted by : Stephanie Presdee

    ''And the very fact that your puppy is registered will prove that its parents, grandparents etc. also are. '' Sadly not fact.

  • 25th February 2013 15:56 - Posted by : sonia field

    First and foremost I am sorry to hear of your negative experience.It makes me so cross to hear of stories like this, which as a breeder,I have heard many times before.
    Sadly,KC registration papers alone is no guarantee of fit healty puppies bred with integrity.I beleive too much emphasis is placed on `conformity` for show purposes and not enough on health and welfare, which to my mind should be the very first consideration. Whats the point of having a good looking dog( with probable above average co-efficient inbreeding score) if ALL appropriate tests have not been undertake, rather than just the KC bare minimum? This bare minimum is mis-leading both breeders and puppy buyers. EG: UK KC minimal requirement for Labradors are hips and eyes.What about all the other appropriate tests that would decrease the likelness of puppies being born with heritable diseases??

  • 13th May 2013 12:32 - Posted by : Simon

    Paperwork means NOTHING !
    A KC or any other generation pedigree list means NOTHING !
    I guess 70 percent of ALL KC reg dogs is a work of fiction !
    Far better, that you see both mom and dad, and that health tests have been done ! Registering your puppy is a total waste of money !

  • 17th June 2013 10:19 - Posted by : barbara flight

    im in agreement KC papers does not guarantee you anything and im afraid health testing doesn't guarantee you anything either I have two cavaliers bought from show breeders both health tested 1 has SM and the other has episodic falling. I also have a number of un heath tested cavaliers who are living to 14 and 15 year old. The kennel club is forcing more breeder to see smaller litters unregistered as even 1 pup in the litter is classified as a LITTER. which is generally putting breeders off if the pup is going to a pet home. all to avaoid politics not just to make money as im sure most people will be aware of the difference in selling a pet and selling a kc reg dog in monetary benefits if that's the sole reason to take a litter

  • 31st July 2013 07:45 - Posted by : poppy

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  • 31st July 2013 07:47 - Posted by : ....................................

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  • 12th September 2013 19:58 - Posted by : Phil

    hi. i was wondering if you could help me plz i got a boxer puppy a few weeks ago now i bought him with no papers too . he's a fantastic family pet and healthy too is there any way i could check his pedigree thank you for your time

  • 20th September 2013 04:53 - Posted by : gemma

    Comment removed

  • 24th September 2013 21:49 - Posted by : Paul

    I find it amazing but Kennel Club registration means nothing these days . With litters limited , which on the surface appears to be a good idea to stop farming , non registered littlers are common place and its difficult to tell who is a pup farmer or pet owner but use common sence and follow the rules , you can still find good pups unregistered and they make fine pets
    Also the snob value of some show people and the price they ask for pups is to me no different to farming . Breeding is about making money . ok ok we all love our dogs !The odd household pet who hada one little fine but anything more ? Why , money of course .

    B registration means nothing

  • 30th September 2013 18:07 - Posted by : Kizzy

    I have the comments above with interest. I feel so confused over KC registration. I have been researching German Shepherds now for a year. I know this is the breed I want. I don't want to show it, so conforming to KC breed is not top of my list, but I do want healthy breeding, and I don't want to breed the dog ... It will be a pet. I have been to two breeders, one I thought was suspect and walked away. There were two pregnant bitches of different breeds. The other questioned me so intensely I felt I was on trial, and the regular check ins with the breeder made me feel I was renting the dog, and I wondered when the dog would be mine. Someone actually wanted to see utility bills. I just want to buy a suitable dog, from a good breeder. I am horrified by puppy farms, and poor breeding, but I am also frustrated by KC registrations, to have or not to have etc. I understand that no reputable breeder wants to sell to a puppy farmer, or someone who will breed the dog with just about anything, but when I visit a breeder I don't my experience to feel an inquisition. What questions should I be answering ... I feel the utility bill was going a bit too far.

  • 2nd November 2013 14:53 - Posted by : Leigh Clarke

    Backyard breeders are conning people into believing there is nothing to be gained from Kennel Club registration and offering to register a puppy of wanted for an additional £100 fee when litter registration is only £15. The following are a bare minimum as regards welfare and should go a lot further but if you get a non-KC registered dog you may find that no welfare considerations have been taken into account at all, the pups have been imported from abroad, the parents in- bred or under or over age for breeding.
    The following explains what will prevent KC registration:
    Non Acceptance of Registration
    The Kennel Club will not accept an application to register a litter when:
    The dam has already whelped four litters save in exceptional circumstances and only provided the application is made prior to the mating and with veterinary evidence as to the suitability of the bitch involved in the proposed whelping and permission has been received, or
    The dam has already reached the age of 8 years at the date of whelping save in exceptional circumstances and only provided application is made prior to the mating, and the proposed dam has previously whelped at least one other registered litter and permission has been received. Any such application must be supported by veterinary evidence as to the suitability of the bitch involved in the proposed whelping, or
    The dam was under one year old at the time of mating, or
    The offspring are the result of any mating between father and daughter, mother and son or brother and sister, save in exceptional circumstances or for scientifically proven welfare reasons and permission has been received, or
    The dam has already had two litters delivered by caesarean section, save for scientifically proven welfare reasons and this only provided the application is made prior to the mating. Provided that the General Committee reserves the right to refuse any application made under Regulation B22c.(1), (2), (4) and (5).
    The dam was not resident at a UK address at the date of whelping.
    Please note that for the purposes of registration a UK address includes the mainland of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Litters whelped in the Republic of Ireland, Guernsey or Jersey must be registered with The Irish Kennel Club (IKC), The Guernsey Dog Club (GDC) or the Kennel Club of Jersey (KCJ) as applicable.

  • 10th November 2013 19:33 - Posted by : Cathy

    I purchased a purebred dog that came with health cert. and within a week learned he was very sick. $4,000 later he was a healthy puppy but I only had 48 hours to prove he wasn't when purchased. I was told the papers would be sent later because the breeder used a stud service and didn't know how long it would take. After 4 months and several tries getting in touch with this breeder I was told I have to show proof that he was fixed. On the contract which is very misleading, it says the papers would go home with the pup or sent as soon as received. It also says that not all dogs would receive registration papers in a different spot. I must have missed that and now I feel like a fool. I love my little guy and thank God he pulled through but I should have gotten what I paid for whether I wanted to breed or not. I just hope he stays healthy from now on. Be careful

  • 25th November 2013 11:03 - Posted by : choclab

    I think KC registration means absolutely nothing. The health tests are not mandatory and do not ensure a healthy pup even if screened for conditions. I think so much concentration on hip scoring and the like is breeding out other characteristics that actually I would rather retain. The KC is abt making money and not about tge health of dogs because it is about conforming to breed standards even if this means it is detrimental to the health of dogs. Rhodesian ridge backs for instance are rejected if they do not have the ridge but if they do it is a sign of spina bifida. Or how about the other breeds with breathing difficulties because they should look a certain way. Proff breeders do it for the money just the same as puppy mills a so called back yard breeder is often doing it to secure a pup frm their well loved pet and so everything is done to ensure the best rearing usually in a home i.e. not a shed. Further to this why would they breed off an unhealthy pet when keeping a pup for themselves. My best advice when looking for a pup to join your family is to ALWAYS see the mother with the pups and if possible the sire. Check out the home and if poss visit a few times before you pick your pup up. NEVER meet the breeder halfway at a motorway service station and ask as many questions you need to satisfy yourself. If the breeder objects don't risk it and move on.

  • 4th December 2013 02:59 - Posted by : mike

    As a former judge, show exhibitor, and breeder of spaniels for many years, all of which were KC registered, I would like to submit the following for the interested to mull over.....
    Due to severe illness I had to very sadly part
    With the majority of my beloved dogs.
    I did however, keep hold of my KC registrations & 5 generation pedigrees belonging to each of my re-homed dogs- The said kc paper work is kept safe under my bed.

    'Here comes the part for mulling over'..........
    I could, at any point, dig the kc registrations out from thier safe keeping, and using the names & kc reg numbers for a male & female dog, fill out one of the kc litter registration forms & register an entire litter of pups that have & never will actually exist in reality. The kc papers for the fabricated puppies can, in due course, be used in the same way to secure registration of a multitude of future litters....! When actually, no puppies at all have ever touched the earth....or have they?but thier official sire & dam didnt come with a KC seal of approval when they themselves were puppies. However, fortunately for mum & dad, they have received some KC donor papers instead!!
    I myself, would never carry out this act but the fact is,millions actually do!
    The fact is also-kennel club registration papers & pedigree generation information papers count for nothing & guarantee absolutely nothing.
    There are also a multitude of other diabolical practices carried out by the kennel club, my above example is just one of them.
    And unless you want to conform to these horrendous practices & parade your dog around in a circle at crufts every year, my advice is discard of all forms of kc paper work or use it in replace of andrex in your bathroom as its fit for nothing better!
    The kennel club deserves every bit of whistle blowing & bad press it gets.
    The public need alerting to its despicable activities.

    Yours sincerely...a former employee of the kc.

  • 28th December 2013 07:45 - Posted by : Sonia Field

    Mike....your comments, from someone clearly ' in the know' is very worrisome. Perhaps you should be doing the whistle blowing?

  • 1st January 2014 04:56 - Posted by : Lena

    Hello all,
    Thank you for your comments. I found this site by typing in to google, "What is the point of getting a dog with papers?"
    I've been looking a puppy for my daughter for 5 mths. I have had a pound dog in the past, at first he was lovely great with everyone and then as he got more comfortable he began threatening any man that came close to our property and shortly after he bit my Grandad, and as I had 2 small children I had to make the decision to have him put down as I couldn't commit the time he needed for retraining. So now my children are older and I decided we will get a puppy because I am not keen to take on an older dog who may or may not have issues that I am not equipped to deal with. As the puppy is to be a pet I was not too worried about the breed. But then as I read up about the different breeds I realized I could choose a breed that would be hypoallergenic, which sounded great because my daughter does have allergies. We looked on trade me, and for the first few months each time we carefully selected a puppy and emailed the breeder, every email response was no, too late all sold out. Then at last we found someone who still had the puppies she had advertised on Trade Me, we had been so excited, we thought we had found the dog for our family, and then the breeder was so full on, I just didn't want to get the dog from her as she made me feel like I was a suspect in a murder trial. I also felt uncomfortable when she told me she was trying to make a new breed, which made me concerned and so I cancelled. Then I found another breeder who was expecting some Shih Tzu puppies and said I could choose one at birth which was soon, she was curt, and I felt like I could finally give my daughter a puppy. We were excited, and went to visit the puppies at 5 wks old. I was a little taken aback when I arrived as the breeder had a lot of dogs and had another set of puppies as well as the ones I was choosing from. As well as a litter of cats. I guessed she must be breed the animals for profit but didn't think it would matter too much as she had said in her email to me that she didn't breed her Shih Tzu very often, and the mother dog looked healthy as did the 4 out of 5 puppies. The one we choose due to his nice colors was the smallest and has an umbilical hernia.
    As i mentioned the puppy is to be a pet, so I didn't think papers would be important, but now after reading the feed back about buying a puppy from various types of breeders, I am wondering if the breeder I am buying from is a puppy farmer. I will still buy the puppy now, despite my new concerns, as we are bonded to the pup. But I really don't know how an ordinary person such as myself could know about all these issues raised in the forum here. I'm not a breeder, I've never been to a dog show. I am a parent who wished to give my child the same wonderful experience of having a puppy, as I did when I was the same age as my daughter. I thought I had done a lot of research on the topic. I googled different breeds to ensure we would get the right breed to fit our family. I gave my daughter new responsibilities around our home to be sure she was ready for a puppy before I even suggested she have one. But 5 mths into to looking for a dog, after wondering why people want a dog with papers, I see I have neglected the most important research of all. Which is finding out about the lineage of the dog.

  • 2nd January 2014 20:01 - Posted by : Suzy

    Hi Lena i don't think the breeder of the Shih Tzu is a puppy farmer because she has another litter and some kittens. Bitches often come into season at similar times so it is quite normal to have more than one litter together. Frankly I don't think the KC papers matter nearly as much as the health of the puppy. Have the parents had all relevant health tests for their breed? Will the pups be vet checked and vaccinated and insured before sale? If you are wanting a non moulting breed why don't you look at some of the Poodle crosses? Have you researched the Shih Tzu and established if this is the ideal breed for your family? Finally why on earth are you considering buying a puppy with a hernia as it will possibly need a fairly expensive operation to correct this. I once inadvertantly bought a dog with a hernia and my vet told me to take it back to the breeder. Sorry if this sound harsh but with all the healthy pups out there why get one with a problem as the problem will end up being yours to solve?

  • 17th January 2014 14:14 - Posted by : Jan B

    Mike, do you not think you have a duty to do as much as you can to expose the Kennel Club for the practices you mention, at least for the sake of the dogs?

  • 21st January 2014 22:34 - Posted by : Paddy and Lilly

    Hi just a question I have a male Yorkshire terrier paddy he's 3 years old and last summer bought a bitch lillian she's now 2 they have recently just had a litter 2 girls and 2 boys wasn't planned jus bought as companions I will b getting one done as I have a baby and work commitments so breeding wasn't my plan I would so love to keep em all as I love my pets and the breed I have had clients of mine asking questions as they are interested in a pup any ideas what I need to do to register ect. Thanks for your help

  • 24th February 2014 06:12 - Posted by : nathan

    Papers mean nothing look at the rhodesian ridgeback. For years breeders said if they didnt have a ridge they had a fault when infact its the ones with the ridge that is faulty. Now they dont need a ridge to be a so called pure breed. Lots of dogs have been mutilated and covered up by kennel club and breeders. Pugs for instance look nothing like they use to. Same for rotties and the apparently extinct white english terrier whos breeding got out of control its skull mutilated and now that nice dog that apparently went extinct is now the english bull terrier. Kc are evil and have no knowledge.

  • 9th March 2014 17:00 - Posted by : GLENDAX

    To put an end to all the uncertainty of parentage and to confirm kc papers are true and genuine blood test all breeding stock their dna cannot lie. Take a leaf out of the Arab Horse Society's book or any horse society who will not register the resulting foal from parents who are not on the

  • 18th May 2014 18:53 - Posted by : linzi

    Hi I need help I bought a bishon frees bitch four years ago an never had papers she's suppose be a pedigree but I would like to be able to get papers for her even if it's just to have them away in safe place but don't know how I go about getting papers or were to start thanks xxx

  • 28th May 2014 17:31 - Posted by : Rupert witherington

    Hi I've just sold a pet black pug and the man knocked me down in price now he is nasty he wants the kc reg
    And I do not want him to have them incase he wants to breed her sold as pet
    He has been evil nasty and now is saying legal action
    I just wanted her to go to good home and have offered to buy her back they have told me the vet want kc regs
    Now he is harassing us phone calls ect
    hELP please pug lover in Brighton
    Kc reg is just for showing and breeding isn't it
    She is lovely heathly great girl as a family very scary

  • 7th June 2014 23:05 - Posted by : Laus

    I have. Amercian bull bitch who has calmed down she's 1 in a few weeks and just got a male who is 1 and a half and he is a pedigree but no papers he is microchipped and got a reg number what shall I do thanks

  • 14th June 2014 14:48 - Posted by : Audrone

    To person with black pug from Brighton. If you sold your dog and buyer was aware he would not receive KC reg papers he cant do anything. You should warn him if he continues to harass you you will report it to police. Please be aware that lack of KC document does not stop puppy farmers from breeding. To be honest price for puppies are almost the same with KC doc or without. Consider all cost honest breeder has to incure following all guidlines i believe the final value drops even lower than puppy farm puppy. On other hand if you was breeder and sold your puppy you could put endorsement that puppies cant be KC registered. To withold KC papers is not fair as then person cant take part in all sort of activities where KC papers are compulsory. But if price is nocked down due to lack of KC papers then its fine as sale was honest. And please dont try to control buyer because once you sold puppy you sold it if you so concerened about puppies wealthear why did not keep him? However you had to vet potential buyer. But as i said you cant stop them from breeding.
    I research alaskan malamutes. Why i said KC reg does not guaranty good price is. I came across nasty breeder where requirements for healthy dogs are not met. But they sold their pups for 600 pounds each no kc doc. But Kc reg with 5 pedigree papers from loving breeders go for 500 or even 350 pounds. Therefore please dont automaticaly assume that KC papers or lack of them will stop your puppy from going to bad hands.

  • 16th July 2014 06:58 - Posted by : Mummy k

    I would like to add my mother and father in law bought 2 chihuahuas both from different breeders both kc papered and both from a high champion background but both grew to have deformities, the bitch has in turned front paws and bowed legs and also has a bold patch and inturned hips so if she was ever to litter she would have to under go c section and she also developed a bold patch on her head. So being kc registered doesn't stop you from buying dogs that have health problems my in laws wanted to breed the chihuahuas for 3 litters but turns out they can't due to the complex health problems of both dogs

  • 17th September 2014 19:39 - Posted by : Dee

    Ok first I a sorry for you bad experience and I hope bobby does make it well into his teens.
    Second. Papers do not always mean healthy dogs, up until they were exposed by the Bbc a couple years ago KC still found culling puppies acceptable. That goes to show how "caring" KC are. I mean best in show can still have breed related illnesses such as septa mycelia on cavaliers and the ridge in ridge backs (yes that ridge is an intentional deformity that makes he dog more prone to illness than a non-ridge dog) so no papers do not mean you are getting 100% healthy puppy.
    Third. If you were NEVER to get an unregistered dog no rescue dogs would ever find homes. My last border collie was a very wel bred stunning example of the bred but I had no way to know if she had ever been registered at all, had I not taken her due to no proof of papers then she may never have found a home due to her being very old when I took her home.
    Fourth. My childhood dog was a cross bred with no papers (as far as I know) and he was very heatly with no issues at all. My border collie who I bought as a puppy 8 months ago (first and last puppy) has no papers he is from working stock both sire an dam are working dogs and so will mine be. Aside from his hilarious lack of sence he is a wonderful example of his breed an very heathly. I have spoken to a few breeders in my area (there are loads of KC collie breeders here) and all of them agree he is a wonderful example of the breed and a few have even said his lack I papers is a shame as the want him for stud due to his wonderful merle markings and body build ( not that I would ever breed as much as I want to the over population is something I will not contribute to)

    I thought it only fair to add my good stories to this as I would not want people to only see the bad. Not everything is black and white in the world. Just remember you can not tell if a rescue has five generation I'm sure as a reputable and caring breeder you had just not Thought of this when you wrote your article as I'm sure you would have no intention of damaging people's opinion on rescues due to a lack of papers

  • 27th September 2014 18:22 - Posted by : ema

    Im askin advice please, I bought a cocker spaniel almost 2 months ago but was told they didn't have her papers. Due to circumstances changing I am having to get rid of her unfortunately, the previous owner has found out and is saying if I get rid she'll report the dog as stolen and report me. She is now saying she's got the paperspso the dog is still legally hers. Is this correct? I have proof of payment and all the messages of sale.

  • 6th October 2014 18:33 - Posted by : barbra summers

    its difficult to know what to do for the best there are so many scammers out there its allmost imposible to get past them
    i nealy got scammed when i saw an ad in pets for homes and when i reported it they didnt do anythink as i saw the sam ad a few days later and even a few wks laterim sure was a puppy farm yet i was told to fo to the kennal club which i did and scames are going on there too people want to cross breed so this will attract the people on benifit as they are allowed 3 cross breeds to get free vet treatmenst and people are advertising there dogs that wil mate with anythink what the hell is going on you carnt make a fourtune selling dogs surly these people should be able to make a living in someother way a more humain way what is happaning to our sociaty we look at what pouches do to elephans and other animals are we sure we arnt doing the same

  • 2nd November 2014 04:38 - Posted by : nardia

    Hi I just bought and picked up an 8 week old purebred blue amstaff that was supposed to come with papers but the breeder said they have to be sent out is this the case or have I been swindled?

  • 9th November 2014 07:16 - Posted by : brandon

    can i just say you talk a lot of rubbish all peaple who breads dogs do it to make money othere wise wye bread so dont tell peaple none reg dog breaders only do it for money utter rubbish (next) all breads of dogs have heath problems show dogs and alike all youdo is sy my dog is kc reg so its perfect rubbish i agree on one thing you say and that is the puppies you are selling should be heath chect befor sold

  • 28th November 2014 23:21 - Posted by : Duncan &Veronica Mackay

    We heartily agree with you about the papers. A pets history is important and what a shock you must have had finding out that the birches were unregistered. It's so easy for puppy farmers to get their money as so many of us love dogs and seeing a cute pup makes it easy for us to part with our money.

  • 22nd January 2015 10:46 - Posted by : Dee

    I bought a pup a few years ago with excellent pedigree history and we decided to let her have one set of pups purely as we hoped to keep one as company for her, the sire is a working dog and when I contacted the breeder (from whom I got my pup) to ask about registration with KC she informed me that only her sire was registered and therefore was unable to register the litter I had purchased from. I do feel a little cheated but also as these will be working dogs or pets do they need to be KC registered or is that just pure snobbery, they are still pedigree surely?

  • 25th January 2015 22:28 - Posted by : Pauline

    Barbra were these Pomeranians by any chance ?

  • 27th February 2015 23:32 - Posted by : Mike B.

    There`s nothing wrong with a breeder who`s natural concern that their pups should go to good homes,leads them to ask searching questions. I was once turned-down by a breeder after a 10 minute `grilling`on the phone, principally because she didn`t like the sound of the dog sitter I proposed using, while I was at work. I understood.

  • 8th March 2015 12:10 - Posted by : Becki

    The thing that really grinded on me on this is that you said that just because he's not KC registered it means he's being bred for money.. So that's like saying that everyone who breeds from a KC registered bitch doesn't breed for the money?!! I'm pretty sure that is not the case and that it is more of a means to charge a lot more for a puppy just because they're KC registered. If all everyone actually cared about was the health of a puppy and not the money they wouldn't be charging so much for them. Although I do get that some breeds require a lot more spending on them for c sections, health testing etc. although it's a little sad we've inbred so much that certain breeds cannot self-whelp.

  • 7th April 2015 00:55 - Posted by : Adele

    Hi. I was just wondering how many litters can be kc registered in a year?

  • 9th April 2015 22:19 - Posted by : kimberly stephenson

    Papers and health check mean nothing. Wen I was little we had a miniture sheltie that the grandparents bred. Our lasted till he was about 8. His brother which belonged to my aunt whom of which is a vet lived to 16. I have been around numerous pedigrees and crossbred my whole life. We had a pedigree German shepherd that had numerous heredity problems. Then I got my own place and after months of looking come across a malamute x husky. Off we went n come home with a beauty. Months after this we went to get a companion for her. A registered husky. Everything seams hunky dory. Yet soon found out he wasn't registered. We had paid a lot of money but it was a pet. He had endless problems. Was head shy which vet seemed to think was down to something that happened before we got him at 8 weeks. He disliked men n had gone for my boyfriend and brother. He had skin problems ect. Anyway not long after he turned two he was stolen and we have not found him since. The crossbred was been a true family dog and healthy we keep in touch with her ped parents. The husky old owners changed there number n moved away. I'm not trying to say that all crossbred are healthy n best dogs. But our husky ped parents had all checks done ect

  • 18th April 2015 13:42 - Posted by : anette pendragon

    I can not comment for other breeders ,but its best to get a kc registered puppy as if you look on site we as breeders have rules to follow ,and I stick to the rules .All my dogs are tested for soundness ,no not everything in life can be guaranteed , but when breeds become rare someone has to try and save them ,but make sure they breed for soundness .The back yard breeders are those that keep their dogs in kennels and are not looked after .A lot can kc register but still no tests . I have had a problem getting transfer of ownership , that is why I question the kennel club .The lady died after 3 days of collecting my dog ,i did not push for papers as she was ill and i was told papers would be sent on .When she died i had to fill in a form 6 and send her death certificate to prove the reason why she could not sign . Now i have a executer from an old will after 4 weeks of owning the dog telling me its not my dog lol Had a solicitors letter sent to kennel club ,telling them that the lady gave me the dog before she dies so this deems it not anything to do with the will .As the law says what ever the person has in the estate at time of death . And still it goes on ..The only thing i can think of is contest the will or speak to my mp telling them that the kc club are breaking the law ,by ignoring the letter ..

  • 19th April 2015 22:36 - Posted by : alan

    I bought a pomeranian the breeder only gave me a photocopy of the pedigree is this right there's no kennel club no on it or anything so how do I know if it's been registered with the kennel club

  • 31st May 2015 23:39 - Posted by : Lynn Koehler

    I thought I was buying a AKA puppy but to late found out it wasn't. I paid already! Anything I can do?

  • 1st June 2015 17:57 - Posted by : Rosie

    We were sold a two year old cockapoo bitch and shown KC registration for her sire and bitch, (which I photographed) we were told that they hadn't got round to registering her but would do it if we wanted her and would send it on. We only wanted a pet so weren't too bothered about the paperwork. Having paid 300 we brought her home and two days later took her to be 'chipped' only to discover she already is and registered elsewhere as 3 year old American Cocker Spaniel. We are now waiting to find out if the real owner wants to reclaim her.
    We had especially wanted a non - shed breed for health reasons, so are bitterly disappointed with the circumstances we now find ourselves in. If she isn't reclaimed we can't keep her because of her fur. While we have a 'bill of sale' we don't really want to take her back to the unscrupulous sellers but cannot afford to be out of pocket.
    Anyone got any advice?

  • 25th June 2015 12:19 - Posted by : Kate Wood

    My husband and I decided that we wanted to buy a Sable coloured Cocker Spaniel puppy. We looked online and found a nearby family breeder. Once we saw the remaining puppy in the litter we immediately fell in love with him. We saw his mother and a photograph of his 'so called' father. We had a good idea what Freddie would look like as he grew into adulthood. Needless to say, we are disappointed, he looks very much like a Cocker/Yorkshire Terrier cross breed. We live in the country and come across lots of other dog owners who comment on his looks - asking "what mix of breed is he". We've asked the breeder for confirmation that he's 100 percent Cocker Spaniel and contact details of his Father, but as yet, they have not come back to us. Again, as a lot of you have indicated, we have no papers. We love and adore Freddie but at £695 we feel that we have been duped! Any useful comments?

  • 18th July 2015 11:24 - Posted by : Cat

    I'm on the other side of this situation. We have a bitch that my partner bought without papers (mom and dad had papers this breeder was clearly in it for the money). We have adored her and kept her as a pet for 4 years now he has decided he wants a single litter from her, not for money but because he has it in his head that he wants to keep one her puppies. Of course hip/ heart scoring are being done and a responsible sire sourced, but my point is, not all paperless puppies are badly bred by money grubbing idiots, some come from well looked after and responsibly bred bitches!

  • 24th July 2015 08:27 - Posted by : darren

    why pay £750 for an endorsed dog thats only a PET , and cant breed from , when you can have the same blood lines and pedigree for £450 and no KC and breed from,still good blood line

  • 9th August 2015 23:25 - Posted by : Patricia

    Disreputable breeders are disreputable people. It will make no difference if the pups have KC registration or not. The papers are no guarantee that pups will be any healthier and certainly no guarantee that any thought will have gone into rearing the pups or consideration of temperament. Look at the environment the pups come from, is it clean? Have the pups been at least partly socialised, does the breeder offer them with first vaccinations? Can you see the mother? Some people are willing to buy a puppy from breeders they wouldn't otherwise consider buying a used car from! If you have alarm bells ringing before you even see a pup - run. Don't ever take a pup because you feel sorry for it.
    Unfortunately even the best breeders can't guarantee that a pup will be 100% healthy all it's life, but I personally believe that good rearing practices and great attention to the puppies and the dam's welfare produces
    the best environment for pups to grow into well adjusted and healthy pets or show dogs.

  • 14th August 2015 21:44 - Posted by : Lynn

    I bought a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel from what I thought to be a reputable breeder here in the U.S. I bought it with full registration rights for breeding purposes. He turned out to have cryptorchidism. The breeder would not take him back, when she knew I wanted to go into breeding. Then she wanted me to sell him and give her another $1000 for another puppy. Already paid her $2500. I finally parted with him as a pet to someone else. This breeder turns out, has 35 dogs and does nothing but breeding for a living. I have decided it is a puppy mill. Never again. All of the papers in the world didn't make a difference with this dog. First time mating the sire and dam, so there was no history on any other litters. But somewhere along the line, there is a history of this problem. Will never recommend her to ANYONE.

  • 17th August 2015 13:53 - Posted by : Kai

    I'm about to buy a pup but the owners don't have its papers would it be okay if I brought the dog with no papers and would there be problems afterwards.Thank you

  • 19th August 2015 23:02 - Posted by : Angela

    We researched, and spoke to breeders for months before we began to look for our puppy, we found an advert for where we got our little boy from. The advert was for "kc reg, pedigree pups" 5 in total, with 1 blue, which we had explained we was looking for, after several emails back and forth, we eventually came to day we went to meet them for 1st time, they was 4 wks old. That's the day the problems started, we was there over 30 mins before she told the 1 we had been looking for had been reserved since day 1 (ok, u never mentioned this before we travelled 80 miles to view).
    Anyway, after that bombshell, the other little boy, my partner picked up, began to kiss and cuddle my partner, so we decided, being as though he picked us, we would reserve him instead, we did, paid our deposit and left. We kept in constant contact over next 4 weeks until we brought him home.
    Here we sit now 5 weeks on, still have no kc papers, and after calling kennel club ourselves, found out the breeder has not even registered the litter at all, and have no chance of getting them without the breeder. Just feel so upset by this experience.

  • 22nd August 2015 21:18 - Posted by : DSmith

    Siberian Husky- I am due to collect my 2 male pups 4/9. I need to know how to identify them for insurance purposes- mother is not registered, no papers with pups- so are they pedigree or not? It makes a differences it seems when U R looking for insurance.
    Thanks for any advice.

  • 4th September 2015 08:51 - Posted by : Gerry Martin

    can anyone tell me what KG reg means not KC reg?

  • 13th September 2015 21:30 - Posted by : luke e

    Comment removed

  • 13th September 2015 23:00 - Posted by : Patricia Beattie

    I totally agree that disreputable people are disreputable no matter what they do. Kind and concerned owners will ensure any litter of pups they have get the very best start regardless of
    KC status. Some pups unfortunately will
    develop into unhealthy adults, its not always the breeders fault. Would you blame parents for breeding a sick child?
    There are no guarantees in life with or without papers.

  • 20th September 2015 03:49 - Posted by : fiona wingrave

    Totally agree. KC reg is imp. Another big problem is puppy prices !. Too many breeders overcharging !. Hence PUPPY FARMS are having a field day/month/year...etc etc etc.

  • 14th December 2015 22:54 - Posted by : me

    I don't think it has anything to do with kc registered or not..Just like having children, no problems with any of them except one...That's life not a label....😕

  • 28th January 2016 19:16 - Posted by : Sweetpea

    We recently went to a KC registered breeder near home to possibly buy a mini schnauzer. This breeder had two litters on the go, very smelly and dirty home, was on Champ Dogs, KC inspected etc and was much more concerned with making money. She was very unhelpful and clearly wanted a 'closed shop' and endorsed all her female pups against breeding.
    We have always had dogs, loved them from birth to very old age and beyond - what makes this breeder think she is more capable and responsible than we are?
    We now have a super, well-loved, registered and non-endorsed pup and may - or may not have one litter before spaying.
    I am still annoyed at the 'superior' attitude of such breeders!

  • 29th January 2016 12:05 - Posted by : sweetpea

    I should have mentioned that we have showed our dogs in the past, bred only once, and brought them with us from SA to the UK with the huge flight and quarantine costs. As we felt very responsible for them and they lived a long and happy life.
    The breeders I have met and spoken to here are mainly concerned with making money- they rarely care as to what happens to the pups they breed and prefer to reduce the competition - for them it's just a business, nothing more.

  • 1st February 2016 18:32 - Posted by : Fiona

    I'm about to buy another black poodle bitch for our male black poodle. He is registered and has papers and a long line, although the one I'm buying does not and the parents both poodles do not either. Is it a mistake, I would like to have a litter of pups on the future so my children can enjoy the experience x any thoughts

  • 1st February 2016 21:05 - Posted by : Richard Tiscoff

    I bought an unregistered pug for my fiance there's nothing wrong with him he's perfect but the breeder did tell me that he could be KC registered but when I was looking it up the other night it says that only the breeder can register him, now I tried to phone him an he's changed he's number so I'm wondering what my next step is an could I get him done for it?

  • 11th February 2016 16:54 - Posted by : Christina martinez

    Please help me find a Pomeranian breeders. did DNA testing on male and fe male before she breed for dogs Tina I searched and searched I cannot find one

  • 9th April 2016 07:19 - Posted by : Anne Yates

    I have a Rottweiler bitch I bought her two years ago I saw mum and dad a very unscrupulous breeder she was the only puppy left and she is one of the best dogs i have ever owned, I contacted the KC because I wanted to breed from her unfortunately they said no because of no certificates for mum and dad I think there denying my girl to become a mother by playing god who are they, and yet I have a registered breeder who is willing to breed with my bitch.

  • 31st May 2016 22:03 - Posted by : Tom

    Came across a backyard Boxer breeder who kept one pup with the mother and father. He was moving and couldn't bring all three dogs. Figured it was best to let the pup go (at 10 months). I met all three dogs, unfortunately the mother had no papers but regardless, I recieved a beautiful Boxer, free, and have had no issues at all. He is my best friend, smart, people/dog friendly and is as healthy as an ox. Guess it really depends on the situation.

  • 7th June 2016 16:12 - Posted by : Natasha

    Hi just after abit of advice, so i have recently bought the newest addition to our little family our very first British bulldog. She is beautiful and we plan to add another sometime next year. I have a concern though and have searched everywhere for answers. When I saw the add we had looked at a few puppies but all very boisterous which is not what we were after. So this add we came across was one we had seen about a year or 2 back when getting a bulldog wasn't posible,they had a good few years experience and stated dogs would be kd registered on their add and microchipped which now is a legal requirement. So we visited the doggies and I instantly fell in love with our now baby, she was a little of about 6 left and she was very quiet but would play and not boisterous. So we agreed on this puppy and when we went to pick her up had paid for her we asked for papers to be told that she didn't have papers, to wich has broken the law, I the stated I would be taking her the vets to wich the breeder got abit offensive by this, so after visiting the vets our Bulldog had not been microchipped so yet again broken the law.I have paid a lot of money for our bulldog and I don't know weather to take her back for a refund I do love her already and she's well behaved but, I don't know if she's full breed bulldog and I dint actually get to see mum or dad. She does look like a bulldog but I don't k ow if I would say she looks full breed

  • 8th July 2016 07:27 - Posted by : moonbeam

    I have a 2 year old, calm but scared of everything mini schnauzer. We decided to buy another as a companion for her. I eventually found a small litter with one pup left, she was not to be kc reg, but we were advised both parents were, and we saw the pedigrees. We were also told parents and pups eye tested and were fine, and that the breeder would post me copies of pedigrees and eye certificates as soon as she was able to sort it out. Having paid
    the £850 asking price we took our 8wk pup home. She is now 16 wks, and despite emails from the breeder saying she is sorry for the delay and the paperwork will be sent soon, I still have'nt received them. I just want to do some comparing of pedigrees of my 2 dogs as an interest to me. We do not intend to breed, and spaying is due on the 2nd pup soon, our 1st was done at 6 months. Our 1st dog is a perfect schnauzer in stance, size and stature. Our 2nd is leggy, 10 inches at shoulder height already (16wks), has both rear dew claws that catch all the time, has a hernia, and a kink in her tail. She was also down on 2 meals a day at 8 wks, too soon i think. However, papers or not, we love her as much as our first. The papers won't change that. But, I should have done more homework before buying the 2nd, we were very lucky with our 1st breeder. Just be careful, and don't rush in.

  • 15th November 2016 12:27 - Posted by : Lee Widdrington

    I have a pedigree whippet with no papers and parents are not registered. Can I get my bitch kc registered? As would like to be able to race her. Thanks lee

  • 4th January 2017 17:15 - Posted by : james

    Just because a dog has papers it doesn't mean it wasn't for money.lets not kid ourselves here. A kc piece of paper does not make a good breeder or guarantee a good dog

  • 6th March 2017 12:06 - Posted by : Brenda

    Comment removed

  • 6th March 2017 12:16 - Posted by : Brenda

    I purchased a beautiful blue french bulldog from a lady who advertised on the internet. She assured me the puppy was K.C registered and that the dog was a K.C registered male as was her dog, the mother of the puppies. The mum was with the pups and seemed a lovely gentle natured dog. I was told tbe puppies were breed registered and she was waiting for their pedigree papers to come through. I had totally fallen in love with my puppy and nievally trusted the sellers version of events. I got her innoculation papers and microchip no etc but no K.C papers have arrived. It is now 4 months after my puppies purchase. When l have tried to contact the seller she does not return my texts or calls. Surely the information she gave me is fraudulent, as the information she gave me appears to be lies. What can l do about it? Do l have any rights? I would appreciate any advice please.